Transcript: Episode #53: No Magical Thinking

Following is the full transcript for the interview with Ni Ni, which appeared on May 20, 2021. This transcript was made possible by Artificial Intelligence (AI) and has not been checked by any human reader. Because of this, many of the words may not be accurate in this text. This is particularly true of speakers who have a stronger accent, as AI will make more mistakes interpreting and transcribing their words. For that reason, this transcript should not be cited in any article or document without checking the timestamp to confirm the exact words that the guest has really said.

Host 00:32

You're listening to a special version of the Insight Myanmar podcast covering the military coup and the ensuing protest movement that has developed during this crisis. We're ramping up the production of not only podcast episodes, but also our blog and other social media platforms. So we invite you to check these out as well. All the other projects that had been in progress prior to February, have since been paused indefinitely, to focus entirely on this emergency. But for now, let's get into our show.

Ni Ni 01:39

Hey, by the way, have a good day. Everything is plundered by Anna Akhmatova. Everything is plundered betrayed sold. That's great blackwing scrapes the air. Misery knows to the bone. Why then do we not despair? By day from the surrounding Woods cherries blow summer into town at night. The deep transparent skies glitter with new galaxies and the miraculous come so close to the ruin dirty houses. Something not known to anyone at all, but wild in our breast for centuries. Allah Akbar Bobby, by Anna Akhmatova Translation by Coco. Alo Bobby Allen Bobby, this are poco me yalsa Lacombe, they may Adama nije Lego Copa COPPA takakkaw ut o Lysa to me a penny baramulla naper mom yo needled Hagar cherry de nuevo Lena de Sala, Jamar en si te Lynette Ganga, Angie nagamma Dante, Trina, tapa our prayer Audrey Nipa sopia a new inoty yo. But all my thegem amo tomorrow's in tomorrow. balumama Lima neo linter de Yasuni panyaza. I'm 23 years old, attending the civil engineering student. And I'm just, I'm just a 23 years old he once was justice. So as you guys know, what is what has been happening in the AMA. So I would like to share my like, unforgettable experience of going out protest that happened on February 28. There was just there was just no matter because what by normal, I mean, thanks for everyone. And everyone. It was a coupe right. So So yeah, since since cool. Everything was like upside down. And the so on February 28, me and my other engineering students, three of my friends and we went, we're planning to go protest. I was like, I got it at like 6am because we have to arrive at the place around at 8am. It was it was an engineering protest. Like a big group of engineers. We On protest. And on that day. For your information for your information before 28, before February 28, there was not deceased people in Yangon. protests are going strong. We're going strong, and we're quite comfortable. Not like coffee is like we are what to use. But I mean, it was like going out protest things for everyone. That was kind of normal to me. So me and my other two friends, we've met, and it was quite usual day. We were having breakfast. And then and then we met. I'm sorry if I sound nervous, because that was not a good memory to think about. So we were talking and it was around 8:30am we'd start hearing that loud rises. took effect, I didn't expect anything like, can fire or things like that, because it is in the middle of the jungle, right? I really didn't I prepare for that. But I didn't expect that to be happening to me. Police, police and other military soldiers, you know, they tried to disperse the crowd without me or not even. We were not even like starting our protest, which is group Han and like preparing because our protest gonna start at around 9am. So it was just like, 8:30am I was so shocked. And \ I couldn't process what was happening to me. My friend held my hand and we start to run. But I don't know what was happening. I even told him that this can't be real, because I really didn't think that they were going shoot. But they really shot. And it was like a lot of that was such a big group. And can you can you imagine that? on 8:30am. Every morning, everything were peaceful. And then longwise King, and you start to run, you don't even know what is going to happen next. And plus, unfortunately, I have heart disease so I can't run fast. And I was thinking, what if I get caught? What if I was taken to the cell? My mother would be very sad. That was what I kept thinking when I was running. But it was really chaotic. I really don't want to think about it. I can't describe that feeling. like you don't know what's going to happen. Like it's like, situation or like upside down. Really upside out. You know, we're laughing we're like, oh, okay, today is gonna be a long day because it's 20 A and we're gonna walk like walk protest walking around the town. So we're talking about that. And then the next meaning you know that you found yourself running on the street? Like it even feel like that you have been prayed. If you are new, like someone is hunting you down. And then yeah, how we got escaped is that we ran away. We kept running and then how we enter to the like the street and the apartment, they open the outdoors because they had the can wise and they don't want the students to get arrested so that the people like yeah, the people that open the doors and they let us into the house. So me and my other two friends we hit in the in that house. And I remember that I almost cry, but I didn't share that to because that was too intense for me. And I really cannot believe that. I even feel like this is a nightmare. You know, this can't be bigger. I cannot believe that. And I how stupid I was with that. I even think that Oh, okay, this is this is just like tea I guess not. Not with real bullets. But on that day at&t attend that reported on that day on 28. And yeah About Me and my friends, you know, we kept hidden in that in that house. And thanks to thanks to those anti, you know who who get hurt because they were a lot of other protects with us. And even the police chased out Jesus down to that rate. And they kept yelling and say, like, come out if you are brave or things like that. And around like, more than 100 engineers and doctors were arrested on that day, there was such a shock in memory and I, I almost got updated that day. Yeah, what is funny is that I can run them. Yeah, I find that before I have heart disease. And I realized that this is a real D, I know, they are gonna do that. That is the moment I realized that the military, or the haunt, or whatever you call them, they cannot do everything. And they are not human. That's what I thought at that time. I didn't have like, I didn't have any hope. in them. Like, in like, in the early days, I was like, Oh, the soldiers and the police. Now we're gonna join as with in CDM moments or things like that. I thought they are they were gonna stand with us, I stand with pizza. But no, they are just the steps of that hold our leadership, they are doing their jobs. So yeah, that was quite horrible to me. And I. So I, we, we hit in that house for like, around two hours. And one they, they loved us and the day after that, like 100 or 200 students, and then they, they just left us. So we sneak out, and we go back to our house. And yes, that that wasn't a great story to their back. But because this is such a horrible memory to me, and I don't want, I don't want to think about it. But at the same time, you know, it does make me more determined about winning this revolution, because I we can't let them control as they are gonna do everything. everything they can to move so and it's our job to do every thing we can to not let them ruin us. So yeah, that's what happened to me on February 28.

Host 12:57

I can't imagine that it's difficult and traumatic to relive a memory of real fear and terror and to go through that mentally, also, emotionally can bring up those sensations and memories and feelings of being there. So I know that's not an easy thing to do. So thank you for taking the time and courage to be able to go back and revisit a very scary experience in the efforts of trying to bring this reality to our listeners who are trying to understand what's happening and what things feel like. And as I was hearing your story, one of the things that came in my mind was just this generation, that you're a part of that you grew up for the past 10 years or so, or almost 10 years of a country that was reforming year by year and becoming more normal and conventional like other countries. And so the things that you're describing the terrors of the military state and the soldiers and the lack of conscience and the ways they conduct themselves. These are things that were very much a reality of Myanmar before 10 years ago, and many, many years before that. But you have grown up in a society where these are just memories and stories and you've never, I would imagine, never have experienced anything like this directly or have friends who had this was the first time in your life that these stories somewhat became true. Was that anything that you were reflecting on at the time or after it happened?

Ni Ni 14:39

Yeah. As you mentioned, you know, we, we grew up in a normal state. I was thinking It is in the middle of the town, in Yangon in 2021. I have never imagined myself running and being chased down by police. And to be honest, I can't imagine myself as a criminal. I was treated as a criminal that day! Can you believe that? I can't, I can't imagine that. And the military was doing that to adnet. You know, like, not in Yangon. They have bad history, of course. But there was just history to Earth, like, to me and my friends, I about the ETA things. Our our parents kept talking to us about that. That 9080 thing, right. But it was just a story. It was just a history to us. And after, like, living in Democrats, like, it was not a real democracy, but it was a part of a democracy. And I couldn't it was very difficult for me to realize that we are facing with, we are really freezing with that. Those military, right? I mean, they are terrorists, we have to take, take that terror, even if we don't want to serve it or not, it is happening. Like, if you have experiences before or not, whatever, they just go not doing it. And I it is hard, true to accept? Yeah.

Host 16:39

So what was it like to have a direct experience with something in your country that you would grown up all your life, I assume hearing these stories, but never actually experiencing directly. And now here you have this direct experience of something that your family has been talking about through their lives for many years, but has never been real to you before this point? What What was that like to have that direct experience?

Ni Ni 17:07

Okay, you know, I am a very simple person. And I may, by simple I mean that I was born as a human. So I always say that human must have human rights message I, like, I am very, like, I don't trust. I don't trust the military. But I thought that that's not going to happen to us, to be honest, right. And I wasn't seeing my human rights went away by those inhumane terrorists. It's not a good thing. I can find the proper word to say, and what about about the coop? It has happened in the pandemic, right? In pandemic, our school has to stop our schools. Like, I'm not graduated yet. Because I was to our university, powdered because of pandemic and I remember my aunt told me that one year hard is nothing baby. In our time we, we like we have to attain diversity for so long because of 9088 days revolutions. Oh, yeah, that's what that was your age, not as we like one year is such a like, is not a good thing too. As you know, I am 23 right now and I am a jobless that that's not a good thing. Andy, don't compare as to your ages. I remember. I taught that to her. And now that is actually happened to me. It's like repeating so. Unbelievable, right? And I just, I just feel like that. Okay, that's it. I get it. And we are facing it. So it's time to fight back. But it is unfair. I still cannot believe that I have to fight this. In 2021! I always thought that the only revolution I'm going to take part in is gender equality. Since our country is full of culture and tradition. They don't. They don't like they don't like, you know, like gender equality is a new topic to them. I thought I was going to fight about gender equality. Now, I am now fighting back about basic human rights and justice. I feel angry just fine thinking that! s orry. Yeah, if you you know what I mean?

Host 19:57

Yeah, yeah. And I want to go back and do a couple parts of your story that you mentioned from the outset and flesh out a few details that people not following the situation may not know so much about. So one thing was that you had mentioned your group finding refuge inside a home of strangers, who sheltered you for some hours, while the soldiers were harassing and threatening you outside, and that you were able to stay hidden and safe there. And, of course, this is something that's happening throughout the protests is this kindness of strangers who, people who are not going on the protests, but see protesters running for safety and open their doors. And this has been a greater and greater risk on the part of those people providing shelter. I had a friend whose family in young on was not going out into the streets. But when the protesters started running, they opened their doors, they sheltered them, the police saw where they came, the police went into their home, they started breaking things, they stole things, and they shot three of her siblings. One of them died, one of them was hospitalized, and one of them was injured. These people didn't even go out on the streets, they were just in their homes. To make matters even worse, they then charged because they needed they needed to have some kind of false reason of why they terrorized and actually killed innocent people who were not even leaving their homes, they had to come up with a fake charge that some of the family members in this apartment, were actually attacking the police, which of course, wasn't true. So then several of the family members had to go into hiding, and actually one of the ones who was shot and recovering was charged with attacking police officers. So these people that are providing shelter to you are doing so at enormous risks themselves and the security forces have begun targeting those providing shelter to try to expose the protesters and keep them on the street. So you know, it was like the kindness and the courage of these these strangers who sheltered you that that was really a highlight in your story. And these people are increasingly coming under danger and risk. And another part of the story is you talk about the abductions and that you're almost abducted because you were not able to run due to your health condition, and that 100 people were abducted that day. And as we've learned more and more about these abductions, especially abductions of young women, we're finding terrible stories of beatings of sexual violence, of rape of even sexual threats. Before the arrests happen. There have been reports in this last week of police officers actually targeting different young women on social media that they're following. And they're they're threatening that they're looking forward to arrest so that they can sexually abuse once they're in prisons, and of course, the time that has a terrible, terrible history of sexual violence against women. And so, these abductions are not just detentions in a prison, which is bad enough, but they carry with it the threat of sexual violence by male military officers and soldiers. And so you know, these things combined, they bring your story even into more terrifying heights, that when you think about both the risk of abduction and the risk of those that were sheltering you this is really a terrifying story from all different angles. You look at it.

Ni Ni 23:56

Yeah, I'll give Firstly, you know, the people who give us data when we are intelligent, they will just I'm really grateful for them. Because at that time, you know, the infamous from literary, they pretend as have been, they pretend like they they have the protester who run and hide and if, if they were in for months, you know, everyone who were hiding in that house would be would be arrested, but they are not informers ordinary. And then they are just great people with as you said, courage, with great courage. They really have an purse. They have like a young young kid, and he was like about, I think one or two years. He was crying because he was like so short everywhere like strangers. Keep coming into his house and This is he just like, looked at us. And then, you know, the loud voices kept coming in, since, since the military, like the haunted cape, children, and this person with tear gas, so it was, it was chaotic situation, and, you know, a household with such a young children, like it was such a young kid, they decided to get the desire to help us, you know, regardless of their safety, that was that was really a hot one. So that, that restore that restore my faith in humanity. Because we've been encountering all those terrorists from military and then those acts of kindness really encouraged us to, to continue what we are doing. And secondly, about that sexual assault that is happening right now. In that cell, like an interrogation session, that was such a great threat. And I am really sensitive about sexual assault when it comes to sexual so I really cannot take it. Because we women are born with dignity, like everyone are born with dignity, and you must be protected. You know, just because we are women doesn't mean that we are weak. We must be protected, we must be treated with like, equally and respected. And the military, really using us and and targeting young woman. They're like, this is not your job to protest, this is not a job to go out and this disobey right. They have that they have that mindset in there, I think in their unconscious mind or whatever. So they try to prove as that we have we are powerless, right? They trying to it is another subject but it's such a cancer package is like our danger is canwood package. They trying to like dehumanize as you're trying to assault as. So. This is such a terrible story. And and yeah, I feel I'd be really, I was upset when I was had that new. You mentioned she was she was being sexually assaulted by the police officers, he even kick in that matter. So this is shocking, you know? Too many shocking things happening to us. So but this is, this is one of the worst thing I've heard. And I can, I can like I can even think of like picture of myself being tortured up like that. I rather die being tortured by those inhumane terrorists. Oh, yeah. This is this is very horrendous.

Host 28:20

So then after this day, February 28, where 18 were killed 100 were abducted, you had to escape and this terrifying situation. And you mentioned how when you went out, there was just a normal day for you. It was in the morning, you were these were streets that you were quite familiar with. This is your your neighborhood, your town, your community, and you never in a million years would have thought that something like this would have happened, it was a complete shock to have to adjust and accept the reality of this terrorist state and the dangers and the risks. And I imagine a day like that was something that allowed you to better, you know, understand and accept the reality of how of this terror and of what was happening. So after this day, how did this change you? Did it change your relationship to the protest? Did it change your relationship to what you did the decisions you were making? How you were going to engage in the protest movement? How did it affect you and what did you end up doing after this day in terms of how you engaged

Ni Ni 29:32

Okay, let let me take take you by to our first day of protest because since the protesting, you know, like since the coop happened, we were like walking on our right we were finding out we are figuring out what we could do about the coop and about to get back on with democracy and justice. So protest was the like, effective way because it represent our voice right? It is encourage everyone that they cannot win. We are all we got. So like protest has such a strong movement to us. So I've been participated in the protesting, I think, February three or four, because everyone, nobody went out to protest, because everyone has has to take time to figure out what was happening, like, what is even the coop now, like, what is this? Right? So I think, protested protest, they got started around three of February three or four. The since then I've been actively participating and going outside, marching, or things like that everything, everything I could do about the protests, I even donated, like by donating food, or things like that, on February 28, you know, that happen. And I just realized that, okay, I cannot run, and I cannot be abducted, obviously. And if I am on out outside, it is like, it has more chance to get updated. And I'm not being egocentric. You know, I'm just like, calculating what I can actually do what I like, what my capability would be more effective. So I decided to just stay at home. And then by staying at home, I just, like, find connections to, to the protest group. And I like, if I can support the financial, if I can give them financial support, or things like that, and then have the, like, awareness, awareness of like, what is really happening with us? And, you know, what shocked me is that on that day, we can use our phone. I mean, like the internet, we can access the internet on the streets, because Wi Fi is the only internet asset we can get. So mobile data, we're not a believer. So we didn't know what was happening. Right? What was happening, and then when I just got back home, and then I said to my internet, and I saw the news of the Seas paper. And that was really that was more shocking than burning and hydrogen. So are they so it just like, it encourages me to, to bring out every person in me, you know, not just about protesting, I need to update my strategy. So realizing that they are now killing, not just like, No, just throw them in as they are actually killing us. That that was what encouraged me to bring every person in and be like, Don't just sit at home, don't just sit down to say, don't just go out what you can do. And just keep asking what you can do what you can do. No, like, I really want to be helpful to to end this. Cool. So I think and then I'm, I mean, like, and I discussed with my friends. And now we do. We figured out what we really can do that not just about protesting, or like supporting, or the inside. Yeah, donation supporting and then join in with campaigns and projects. So yeah, I am good. I decided that I'm going to use every power I have to end that. Yes.

Host 34:07

Right. Well, certainly there's the expression that desperation breeds innovation, and also the reality that we don't really know what we're made of, or who we are until we're tested and the situation gets quite challenging and uncomfortable. And then we learn who we are and how we respond to it. I think those are things that we're certainly seeing today that many people that thought they would never be living in a society and a terror like this. Once they realize and accept that they truly are. Then the question comes, what do I do with it? How do I respond? What resources do I have? And we're certainly seeing across the country. People that were living very normal lives just a few months ago are now thrust fully into a new kind of existence, a new kind of role, and even though those outside of the country are not in that kind of mortal danger. terror, many have also responded similarly of looking at who they are and what resources they can bring to bear in ways that none of us ever thought would have been a reality before. So, after February 28, in your situation, you mentioned how you came to the assessment that really, you would be more of an asset inside than outside, which, to me sounds like a very smart and reasonable consideration. And you have been staying inside but doing a lot of mobilization and activity and support. So can you share a bit about after February 28, when you realized you couldn't go on the streets anymore? What did you start to engage in? How did you start to help? What activities were you involved in from this point? Until now?

Ni Ni 35:49

Yeah, okay. It might sound funny that I started to like, read a lot more, because I need to know what what we are facing with right, and need to learn more about the cool more about resistance more about fighting. So I started to, like, do my research on revolutions, I read about Sudan revolution, like, every day, that will make me be a true revolutionary, you know, during the whole month of February, I was like, like, I was doing what I can go in and protest or dance like that. That was emotional roller coaster, but after February 28, I just accept it, accept myself that I just labor myself that, okay, I am a revolutionary, you go getter, you must do things. So, first, the first step of being a revolutionary is that you must get educated about that, right? So you must to make your moves effective, you you need to know your power, and you need to know that, that what your enemy will do, right, you have to be good at with strategies or things like that. After that, I start to research and do everything right, I read a lot. And then I found out that I'm, I even read, I think Jane chose to take from today torture to democracy, you know, that book, and I found out that there are a lot of non violence thing that we can do. And I, I realized that, you know, civil disobedience move movement, that is the key, that is the bind key. I mean, that is like the most possible way to, to end this coop. So I heard that, okay, I must have with those who are participating in civil disobedience, who must have done both physically and mentally, because you know, that our country is in great economic risk. And most people are not in good financial state. Like, we don't include them. So, okay, so donations are needed. So I just like start to fundraising, I just start to come up with my fundraising ideas. And yeah, I, I have a lot of ideas about I have a lot of ideas that if I think I can, you know, I can perform that idea I just go and ads for those who, who actually can do that idea. So, yeah, about connection. I tried to make a strong neck law, you know, I observe who are really like, who has good intention. It may sound weird, but after February 28, and it was a bloodshot day of in Yangon and some people stop doing night some people stop taking part in revolution is not their forte. I don't I don't think that they are afraid. Because, you know, it needs to take time and things to, to realize, to realize what we are like, I mean, we all have like, about that incident. About the February 2008 incident. We came we came up with a different solution and different effects magnesium. So yeah, to me, I didn't, I cannot take a risk. I just educate myself and then Hi, I tried to support the CDM. And then, of course protests St. in me two goes wrong. So I, I was highly aware that the safety and the security of the frontline, like defense defense team for miners who take that in that protest, we must make sure that they are safe. Right. So I was mainly being active in, in donations to see the participant in, in and the safety of the poor texter. Yeah.

Host 40:42

So you mentioned that you started to become interested in educating yourself and learning about revolutions and studying about insurrections in other countries as a way to learn about what was happening in real time in your country. So can you share a bit about what you read and what you learned from it, what insight you gained from some of those books that you started to go through?

Ni Ni 41:05

Okay, so the thing about our country is that the, the major social platform, we use your environment in your mouth is a Facebook, you know, so since since we everyone, there are a lot of people who are scared their ideas, their thoughts on the cool. Some even say that, this is gonna end. So I'm going to say that I get the This might sound funny, but the United Nations and the United States of America are gonna save as long so you don't have to do anything, just stay at home and wait. I did you know what I mean. Right. So a lot of unthought of came up with those, and maybe they are informative or things like that. I don't know. Like, they share their thoughts opinion, which only lead to false hopes, right. And false hope only lead to under estimating our capabilities. That's what I'm starting to realize. So everyone, including my mom, she's so caught up in false hope. And she even like, start to tell me, honey, you don't do that anymore. Like this is gonna end zone, right. So just realize, we are going to be alright, and we don't have to worry to stay at home. No, no, Mom, this is not the right answer. So educating yourself is such an important thing to do. I thought about the books I read, I learned about non-violent resistance, and then I watched many YouTube videos of the Hong Kong protests, and then I realized that dictators, they will only respond to force. That's what I great learned, to be honest, because people really underestimate the power of dictators. You know, they think that this could end very soon or this can end without bloodshed. \ or this can act without the dub lecture. But, you know, as more than 700 people got reportedly killed till now, as of today, more than 700 people, but by that February or March time, no one will believe if you tell them that, that amount of people. Well, that amount of people went got killed. So but you know, to me, I, I prepare for that. So, and I, part of me know that the there will be a time that we all must unite together. And then there is no such thing as outside hub. I mean, we are the only ones we got it is if, um, you know, we we are the only like, we're gonna end this with our own time. You know what I mean? Everyone was involved. We cannot just sit down and accept those you and us or our toupie they are not gonna be helpful to us. So yeah. And one more great thing I learned. Some you like, you can't statements are nothing. I don't want to say this, but state statements would just be paper to dictators. Yeah, that's, that's the key point. And that's, that's what I've been telling myself every day. Stay strong, be prepared. Anything can happen. So be prepared to do anything. Yeah.

Host 45:28

Right. And I think that comment about statements not really being helpful at this time is a very accurate one. I think that's true, not only regards to institutions and countries and diplomats, but also in terms of those of us outside who are caring about what's happening is, it's very easy for many of us outside to say that we're worried or concerned, but Okay, great, be worried be concerned, then what then how is that going to translate into some kind of helpful action. But I want to go back to some of the things that you shared just now, you talked about up to this point. And I should mention that we're recording this on April 24, it will be sometime before it's released. At the time we're recording, there's over 700 deaths at the time that it's released, we don't know how high that number will go. And these are 700 lives that were just like anyone anywhere else around the world that had their hopes, their dreams, their problems, their struggles, their challenges, their own journey that they were on that in 700 cases, were cut short for absolutely no reason for something that was completely unforeseeable and unexpected before February 1. And these lives the backbone and the energy of the younger generation of Myanmar, which was propelling it into the future or just being crushed, and eaten away from something that had been so promising these last 10 years. And as you mentioned, this is a sign of a brutal dictatorship that does not respond to statements, and that only responds to force and your studies of dictators and revolutions elsewhere. This is a consistency in a commonality that you find among coups and dictators elsewhere, that this is a mentality that is not tied to culture or time or space, but is a function of being addicted, being a dictator, and proceeding with an illegal coup. Yet on the other hand, I should mention on one hand, we have this kind of violence, this force, this might is right. And on the other hand, you had referenced your interest and seen how resistance could be non violent, how many forms of nonviolent resistance there really was, and how this could be applied through CDM. And through other kinds of methods to be effective, and to shut down and to show protest, to not rely on outsiders to come and save you and to just sit back and wait for that to happen, but to actually be active and independent yourself. And so where are you now on this question of violence, non violence, that this is something that I know everyone everyday there is thinking through and trying to understand and get to grips on. But on one hand, you have these dictators, both historically, and from what you've researched, as well as the particular dictator, in your case in your country, where they do hold on by force and violence of any means. And on the other hand, you as humans everywhere, we, you know, humans, for the most part, have an aversion to wanting to commit violence or see or condone violence, even to those that we don't like it's in our DNA and in our nature to not want to cause harm. And you reference just now your own commitment to wanting to look for non violent ways. So when you look at that balance of the the nonviolent struggle versus the the the the open violence being condoned on the part of the military, where do you stand on trying to understand how to go forward?

Ni Ni 49:12

Okay. You mentioned about that 700 debt casualty and I want to edit that, that you know, what makes me so mad about this coupe is that 700 lives you know, we are not born where to live. And People around me keep saying that post-revolution, we are going have a bright future after the victory. Everyone will respect us for this revolution. Okay, it is a bright side, but we will never cope. That will never bring back those lives. This is so unfair. And this is really upset me. The clock is ticking and we are losing life. About the economic you can you can get, you can try to get better at your economic everything can can be trying again but life we don't we don't have backup plans and you know, bless don't only take the bet it only believe it. I'm sorry, I'm upset. Yeah. And you can you imagine about the rest of their families? How would they be even like this this victory work, we're just we're not make them completely happy they will remember them, like their sons, their fathers, their partners is as you will never hear them patri or not, it will never he would never take back those lives. So please advise that that's what I I've been thinking. And another thing that is really upsetting is that we really cared about international communities. You know, since the first day of the coup, those most people say that don't go up, who cares? Because it is in the middle of pandemic, if you go protest, it will like it will do something about like people, people would say like, you will only create bad image because of the COVID. Right? So you are not following the health protocol. So we listen to them. We listen to the like, we're trying so hard not to be a bad image to international communities. But what do we get instead? Nothing. I mean, it is no like no offense or something like that. Don't get me wrong. I'm not doing chaser here but I'm just like, facing the reality. So yeah, and that that was where we called roll I think personally and then that since the first day we try so hard to be peaceful we tried to be a peaceful protests that we only just we don't even like we even negotiate with those. Those security forces we even chance say that you are the light in Palm is itself the BLF up yeah, it means that what police are for a police are for paper. That is such a joke now because we tried so hard to look peaceful. And that leads us to nothing that just like the haunt only underestimates and it just like process more. So about the violence or non violence. Now no one has any right to judge our protesting Stein our resistance that it could be violence, it could be unfounded, but you know, we are just resist in. So CDM is an anti life movement. And other than whatever we are doing, like to defend ourselves. It is just a resistant, the word remains persistent. No one has an okay, I might sound I might sound harsh, but I'm just like bringing you the reality of it right now. Most you be the same. But you know, we don't even have any that we don't even have again. So if that's what you're asking, we had nothing. We just have a fake and a brain. That's all we have. So everything we do, it will remain as narrow as resistance. Yeah, I'm sorry if I sound harsh. And really emotional right now. Yeah. I hope you guys can understand. Thank you.

Host 54:04

Yeah, no, I think that that's a very good point. And what I've also been telling people is that no one that is outside the country right now has any right whatsoever to be giving any kind of thoughts or theories on what people faced with this kind of life or death situation should be doing. We're just we're not in that situation. We're not in that terror. We're not at that mortal risk. And so when you're not faced with it there, there's really very little that you can say in terms of what others should do. And, you know, I'm speaking to a lot of people in the country and some of those people are coming from very devout Buddhist and dharmic backgrounds have been very serious meditators are following the precepts very carefully their entire life of not transgressing and not causing any harm and even these people are faced with Certain kinds of decisions that they never in a million years they thought would be faced with, given the terror of what's going on. And so I think for those of us outside, the best we can do is to listen and understand and to ask questions. And to recognize that not being in that situation, there's a limit to what we can understand and how we are able to advise, and God hope that in our lives, we never have to face such terrifying decisions to have to make. But because our friends are making those decisions, what position can we be in to help them understand and make better decisions, but those are not ours to make. Those are not ours to advise, I think that's something that many should understand. And I think even though you reference that many of the people don't have the kind of resources or training compared to the aggressor that you're against. I'm sure that in some of the readings that you've done, you've read about insurrections with seemingly insurmountable odds were on the people side, they had very little, they had very little preparation, very little materials, very little of anything. But the people do have one thing, and that's the numbers. And if desperation truly does breed innovation, then there are ways to use things in one's community and local resources that are not readily apparent. And that can tip the scales and can make a difference. And those aren't, I'm not speaking theoretically, I'm speaking historically, I'm speaking about, you know, Afghanistan, or Vietnam or any number of other places where a much fiercer and more experienced aggressor has not been successful, because the people on their land have been able to resist in ways that ultimately thwarted the ability of the aggressors plans. And I think that's what's happening now. And I think that, in order to do this successfully, so much comes from a couple of points, you've mentioned one, actually, these points are connected, you know, accepting the reality of the situation that you're in accepting the terrorist state, it's very ironic that this kind of accepting the reality of the manifests is actually kind of a Dharma lesson that's actually kind of something that a meditator on a course or in a cave works to do to accept the reality that's manifesting. That's also the same task of a battlefield strategic is accepting what the conditions are not what you want them to be, or not engaging in magical thinking, as you mentioned, that summer that someone somewhere will come and save you Why? Why will they do that? Why will they risk their own lives and capital for coming to a place where they don't live. And so I think, as terrible as it is, and as frustrating and, and, and awful as it must be, the more that one can accept the real conditions that are there, and the real possibilities of who will help and how they will help and how they won't, the more that can ground the mind and not engaging in revulsion or aversion or shock or whore. Okay, there's a time for that. And definitely when you're having to run away from police on February 28, that's definitely the time to be engaging in that kind of shock and surprise and horror. But then there also comes a time to realize, okay, this is how things are. And being shocked and appalled and terrified only takes me so far, there has to be some kind of transition, where you start to see yes, this is the reality I'm living in, what do I do? How do I deal with it? What are my options? How can I respond? And it seems like that's the phase that you and many in your generation and others are now in is having a deeper acceptance and understanding of that reality and trying to see what resources do you have in being able to respond to me?

Ni Ni 59:02

Thank you for like reorienting my work, because I'm not very good at English though. But you know, you like kind of arranging my statement. Thank you guys. And yeah, you know, we only have intelligence, because we It is very hard to realize, like to accept it. First, I accept that teraz is happening to us. And then the other thing I find it hard to assert is that anything had happened to me like at any time, because that's that's how those terrorists began. so far. You know, now I'm talking to you, but if a soldier like one or two soldier like can read it in our threes, they can just easily break through my house and then they can take my laptop or they can just Take me to say like, those things can happen. Because people like I'm talking to you, I just read the news that they are objecting. I just like, this is such a regular thing to me now, like to us now to the whole country. So what resources? Do we have nothing? Because no one is prepared for that. Right? We don't have, okay, let me get you straight. They showed us we can, and we can show them with nothing. So the only powerful weapon and resource we have is our mind, you know, they are armed with guns, and we are armed with mind. We are very determined. And we have visions, we like we have that faith in ourselves in our heart. So everyone's just like, we are like, kind of using our soft power. And so I believe that we are going away. But it takes time, it would take time, like if we're gonna win sooner or later that I mean, it's a matter of time. But yeah, so we have, we have our hearts, we have our people. And we have our justice. So that's the only resources we have.

Host 1:01:34

Yeah, so I also want to ask about another initiative that you're involved with, you've mentioned some of the things that you're engaged with. And you're also trying to assist with those that don't have Wi Fi Of course, communication is really an issue right now, both communication within the country and outside the country as well. So can you discuss a bit about what is going on with the communications infrastructure at the moment in Myanmar, what challenges are being faced, what threats and concerns are there for what could happen in the future and what precautions you're taking and how you're trying to help people to stay connected now as well as if things get worse? in the future?

Ni Ni 1:02:19

Yeah, no, go in this dire time is really important to for us to stay connected, because as I said, we are all we got. So we we must make sure that we are connected. So to us, you know, internet is the only communication like not not the only communication, but it was like majority of communication style we had, right. So without the internet, that was really first rate. And I was like, Okay, if we don't if I don't have internet what what what are we going to do? How we connect with my friends and it lack of information? I mean, the agenda, the whole entire agenda, whatever you call, it is, you know, they are in favor, if there is no internet, like, you can upload the evidence by right. So I never prepared for disconnecting with Internet in my life. On the first day of the coup, they just cut off everything, both internet and even I think cell phone line. So I thought okay, there would come a time that we must figure it out what we can do, though, okay. I read about the revolutions if it happened before the time of internet so we can we can work that out. Like, you know, printing the jhanas and then you just like, you can go back to all Stein right as long as you you made up your mind. As long as you do have that will. We'll just figure figure those way out. And before the coup before that. Going back to all signs I'm I called to my friends who is like in who cannot access to Wi Fi data, my friends and my relators I told them about the news. What should we do, like everyone is waiting for, I think, sigh if 100 call it like everything is connected. It's just like, you need to know that something is happening somewhere. If you know me, like I am in Django But you know, I want to go out to protest, but I don't know what is happening in the next Township. If I know that if something is happening in the township, I could go out and join them. So everyone is waiting to join in. That's my point. So to join in, you need to know the information. So yeah, I, like me and my other friends are trying to not trying to like we are now working on that, on that, like spreading the informations every way we can, like, but you know, for sake of our security, I don't want to tell it about you too. But yeah, not just me. And my friend, I every youth is struggling with that not struggling. They're just like, we all are working on that. Because we know the importance of solidarity and yeah, things like that.

Host 1:05:55

Yeah, sure. And we definitely don't want to expose anything that you're doing in terms of the communications or strategies, I think it's enough just to know that you are thinking about it. And it is something that you're engaged with, and both in terms of what's happening now and what could happen in the future. And just looking at how to keep that safe and secure. So on another topic of safety and security and some of the work you're doing, I know that you're also engaged with helping and supporting those civil servants that are not going to the office part as a part of civil disobedience movement, or CDM, I think you're quite connected, not just with giving donation and giving donation is very important, we should mention and we do have a way to receive donations through our platforms, you can for those listeners, you can give and specify that you want your specific donation to go. If you want after listening to this, and those donations are the lifeline. However, there's so much more involved after just that financial transaction that is, is able to keep them away from the office, it's also a personal engagement with knowing the difficulties and the stories and the dangers and everything else that these people are under. And that's something that you're intrinsically involved with, with you are connected to many people that are in the CDM movement with their, their their stories and their struggles and their safety. And so I wonder if you could share a bit about some of those people, what they're going through how you're supporting them, what kind of challenges they're under, so that listeners can have a bit stronger understanding of what the human struggle and the human side of this is.

Ni Ni 1:07:45

Yeah, thank you for this question. You know, I okay, as in the earlier part, I'm, I mentioned that civil disobedience movement is like, obviously, played a key role in fighting those details, because the main purpose of the data is moving as and if no one is obeying, they can move. So if there is no government stuff, right. So that I mean, it is very important that that's the government stuffs, not just the government like private stuff wall cause, like, they, they see that it's their civil disobedience move movement, what, when we must make sure that cdms goes wrong. That's my point. So yeah, but you know, it is very, like challenging for them to resist that movement. I mean, to take part in that movement, because the military is targeting them, including the doctors. That is really like terrifying. The doubters and teacher, I'd like to have my ends, they are teachers, and they have to they have to relocate things, favorite one, because you know, if you know about the process of the election, teachers are teachers play take part in the election process, like, if you know that, so, yeah. So she has to she and my other end, both both are like on the rent. Because for the military, that the people who are involved in in CDM is such a great threat to them. They want to rule as they want to, they want to show the international community that they can rule us over the status table. Everyone is like get to their walk. So CDM was a really ingrained threat. They are safety. It's like even even like in like, life threatening situation for them. And, and you know, the other like, okay, the other thing is that today, today is I think 24 April right. And if you know that mail, hein go and attend that ASEAN Summit. The important thing is that he is a criminal, and he is walking away. And our, our people who are taking part in those CDM, like those CTF movement they have, they have to hide, like, if you know what I mean? How How could that happen? Right? This is really upsetting. Those days, like walking off free and being even why combined, those ASEAN leaders and my people, like our people, they have to run and they have, they are being treated like screaming, they're such a ridiculous thing to say, I don't even want to. So yeah, not just about the financial thing. Those people who participated in CDM, they really need mental support and night, stand in ingestive. But if justice don't stand with them, it might be really, I'm not sure that is not my forte anymore, if they even if they decide not to try in that ctm anymore, because from the start, they trying to do the right thing. And then for doing the right thing, they are in the life threatening situation. And if no one is with them, it is really hard for them to, to see like that, like, if you Yeah.

Host 1:12:12

Right. So you're really highlighting the physical safety of the civil servants just again, just leave leading normal lives, nothing special. And now their safety and their family's safety is at risk just for trying to do the right thing. And they're in this impossible situation. Of course, in Myanmar today, no one is safe, they talk about safe houses. But even the people that I've spoken to overseeing safe houses mentioned that there is no such thing as a safe house, because even staying in your home, could get you shot or abducted or detained or beaten or something else. So there, there really is a lack of safety everywhere. But certainly there is a higher degree of risk for those civil servants in the CDM movement. And there also is less safety for those people who are detained, of course, those people who are in prison, as we mentioned before, as well as those protesters on the front lines that are actually physically literally facing off with those security forces. So what can you say about the lack of safety that is found to a much higher degree in those groups specifically?

Ni Ni 1:13:26

Yeah, like as you said, no one is safe, right here in our country, like there is only two situation if you are in great travel or you are in graded travel, you know, that's it. So, we are in trouble, but those people who are immigrated to other is that CDM participant and then the students and the other people who is detained who are detained in the prison, because you know, from the from the start, they are not, they are not arrested, they are updated with an awfully like laws are happy with them. But I hate to say it that isn't is not that much in youth. I mean, I am very grateful for lawyers and they are trying everything they can but you know, the terrorists, they they just did the those people like if you were walking down the street and they don't like you, they were just taking there and they will beat you up and then they will put you in the prison is like is really shocking and about and we had that even like sexual assault happening in the cells. And if you are the participant of protects them or if they find any evidence that you took part in the protest, or any like, like me donation process, I those names, you know, whatever. You do whatever you did against them, they will torture you to death and in, in their breath even say that we can just kill you and we'll make it unknown. Because of course, you know, in the prison, you cannot cover any news, you cannot know the truth. Right? So, this is really concerning, like, very highest degree and I really hope that international communities or whatever they can, whatever in charge or whoever in power of like, to pressure that meal by to release all the detainees, because, you know, some of them are even like 15 or 16, I heard that I'm really like, isn't really unpleasant to hear that and they are safety is at really highest risk and is like, you know, parents, especially parents, they are really worried about their children how, if you got upgraded, you cannot, you lost all the power is like, being in the prison is, is like you just existing, you can do anything that really thrives in the post Trump like traumatic condition, it will hand you down your whole life, that torture, because, you know, like, from from the beginning of this podcast, we just highlighted that we are the generation will never prepare for those kinds of terror, right? No one is prepared for that, even if we like we only have one month to prepare our mind. Right. So if we got a better if got arrested, and if we got like torture by those inhumane terrorists, that that is really shocking. And nothing is granted in there. You know, they can they could easily kill us. And so yeah, please take pay attention to those who are detained. And awfully, they need to release immediately. They're like matter like, yeah, just please make sure that I I'm I call out is that call out is the right word or not? I mean, I want everyone to pay attention to those who are detained, because prison is not safe. They are inhumane. They were just taught as to that. So yeah, please.

Host 1:17:38

Right, those are good and really terrifying points. And even even the language sometimes to me is problematic because it doesn't accurately reflect what people are going through. We call it prison. We call it police. We call it detaining. But this all implies some kind of legal order and procedure. And of course, there's none of that. Now, there's no sense of following any kind of judicial protocol or anything else. And, you know, it's not just those 700 dead up to this point. It's also all the family members who have suffered from losing someone, it's the people who have been harmed mentally or physically, it's the people that are in prison that we don't know what is happening to them, how many will survive and those that survive what they'll carry with them for the rest of their life and what their families and loved ones will carry. Because they went through so the the human toll of this senselessness is just continues to been, you know, trying having us trying to understand some sense of the toll that this is taking just in general, I'm aware that you only have a few more minutes of connectivity. Of course, every day, the internet is shut off promptly at one in the morning. And we're coming up on one in the morning now. So we're running up against the very end of our time with you with your internet being shut off. But I really thank you for being able to stay up late to connect with us and share and I know even just the fact of sharing, it brings its own kind of trauma and difficulty in doing so. And I hope that it will be really of great value to listeners there and being able to have a more detailed and in depth understanding of how things are there. So you know, you have all of our support and our thoughts and good wishes and we'll stay in touch and we just wish your work to be successful and you personally to be safe, as safe as can be in these circumstances, physically as well as mentally and our best wishes with you and thanks so much for taking the time to come on and share with us.

Ni Ni 1:19:55

Thank you so much for having me. I am really glad that to speak on my voice And thank you thank you for your support. This means a lot to us.

Host 1:20:10

Thank you for taking the time to listen to this show. I understand that this is an enormously difficult time for many people these days, myself included. And just the mere fact of staying informed is helping to keep a focus on this pertinent issue. And the only way that we can do our job of continuing to provide this content at this very critical time is through the support of generous donors, listeners like yourselves. So if you found this episode of value and would like to see more shows like this on the current crisis, please consider making a donation to support our efforts. Either monthly pledges or one time donations are fully appreciated. And all funds go immediately to the production of more episodes like this one. Thank you deeply in advance and best wishes at this time. If you would like to join in our mission to support those in Myanmar who are resisting the military coup, we welcome your contribution in any form, currency or transfer method. every cent goes immediately and directly to funding those local communities who need it most. Donations go to support such causes as the civil disobedience movement CVM families of deceased victims, and the purchasing of protective equipment and medical supplies. Or if you prefer, you can earmark your donation to go directly to the guests you just heard on today's show. In order to facilitate this donation work, we have registered a new nonprofit called better Burma for this express purpose. Any donation you give on our Insight Myanmar website is now directed to this fund. Alternatively, you can visit our new better Burma website, which is better Burma one word.org and donate directly there. In either case, your donation goes to the same cause, and both websites accept credit cards. You can also give via PayPal by going to paypal.me slash better Burma. Additionally, we can take donations through Patreon Venmo, GoFundMe and cash app. Simply search better Burma on each platform and you'll find our account. You can also visit either website for specific links to those respective accounts. Or email us at info at better burma.org. In all cases, that's better Burma. One word, spelled b e t t e r bu r Ma. If you would like to give it another way, please contact us. Thank you so much for your kind consideration.

1:22:43

What am I gonna do we are done and

1:22:47

we got busier and

Ni Ni 1:22:48

busier.

1:22:51

yada, yada, yada, yada, yada,

Host 1:22:53

yada. You've been listening to the Insight Myanmar podcast, we'd appreciate it very much. If you could rate review and or share this podcast, every little bit of feedback helps. You can also subscribe to the Insight Myanmar podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever else you get your podcasts to make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes. If you can't find our feed on your podcast player, please just let us know and we'll ensure it can be offered there in the future. Also, make sure to check out our website for a list of our complete episodes, including additional text videos and other information available at Insight myanmar.org. And I also invite you to take a look at our new nonprofit organization at better burma.org. There's certainly a lot to talk about in this episode, and we'd like to encourage listeners to keep the discussion going. Make a POST request specific questions and join in on discussions currently going on. On the Insight Myanmar podcast Facebook group. You're also most welcome to follow our Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts by the same name. If you're not on social media, feel free to message us directly at info at Insight myanmar.org. Or if you'd like to start up a discussion group on another platform, let us know and we can share that form here. Finally, we're open to suggestions about guests or topics for future episodes. So if you have someone or something in mind, please do be in touch. We would like to take this time to thank everyone who made this podcast possible. Currently, our team consists of two sound engineers, Mike pink and Martin combs. There's of course Zack Kessler, content collaborator and part time co host, Ken pranskey helps with that team and a special Mongolian volunteer who was asked to remain anonymous does our social media templates. In light of the ongoing crisis in Myanmar, a number of volunteers have stepped in to lend a hand as well. And so we'd like to take this time to appreciate their effort and our time. time of need. And we're always on the lookout for more volunteers during this critical time. So if you'd like to contribute, definitely let us know. We'd also like to thank everyone who has assisted us in arranging for the guests we've interviewed so far. And of course, we send a big thank you to the guests themselves, for agreeing to come on and share such personal powerful stories. Finally, we're immensely grateful for the donors who made this entire thing possible. We want to remind our listeners that the opinions expressed by our guests are their own, and don't necessarily reflect the host or other podcast contributors. Please also note, that is we are mainly a volunteer team, we do not have the capacity to fact check our guest interviews. By virtue of being invited on our show, there's a trust that they will be truthful and not misrepresent themselves or others. If you have any concerns about the statements made on this or other shows, please contact us. This recording is the exclusive right of Insight Myanmar podcast and may not be used without the expressed written permission of the podcast owner, which includes video, audio, written transcripts or excerpts of any episodes. Also not meant to be used for commercial purposes. On the other hand, we're very open to collaboration. So if you have a particular idea in mind for sharing any of our podcasts or podcast related information, please feel free to contact us with your proposal. If you would like to support our mission, we welcome your contribution. During this time of crisis, all donations now go towards supporting the protest movement in Myanmar. To our new nonprofit that are Burma. You may give by searching better Burma on paypal Venmo cash app, GoFundMe and patreon as well as via credit card at better burma.org slash donation. You can also give right on our Insight Myanmar website as all donations given there are directed towards the same fund. And with that, we're off to work on the next show. So see you next episode.